Desktop - Moving From Electron to Native to Future-Proof All Platforms

bedwardly-down · 2020-04-09T17:56:03.152Z

Non windows platforms is where many of these web apps struggle. That’s where Joplin seems to be flopping around a bit due to kernel maintainers changing how things work upstream and breaking quite a few frameworks and apps when they did such.

I don’t hate Windows. I just have different needs that require substantially more work to obtain with Windows. This whole post came about because of concerns with the Linux and Mac apps.

guy-rouillier · 2020-04-09T21:28:06.687Z

@RedDocMD, I don’t think Java developers (or really, developers on the whole) are lazy. My opinion, having worked in the field, is that the organization does not put enough importance on getting an acceptable user interface. Aside from companies that make the bulk of their money from software like Microsoft, for most organizations software applications are not a significant source of income or profit. The one I mentioned from TD Ameritrade is useful only on that platform, and TD provides it to their customers free of charge. In that situation, carefully tailoring an application for separate operating systems is an unjustifiable expense. So, they look for an alternative that is “good enough” for their customers, and that will be of acceptable cost to develop. Since Java is write-once-run-anywhere, that nicely meets that requirement. Customers use it because they have no other choice, and it gets the job done, but they don’t actually enjoy the experience.

bedwardly-down · 2020-04-09T21:41:09.707Z

@guy-rouillier, that sounds like the old adage:

If you’re not paying for it, you become the product.

tangodelta · 2020-04-09T21:58:30.896Z

I’m not good at JS (not even “Hello, World!” capable) but has anyone researched QT Quick?

laurent · 2020-04-09T22:13:49.047Z

The first version of Joplin was done with Qt and QML (the code is still there in the repo in old commits, before it was replaced by React), but as mentioned it’s not great for mobile. Also when I’ve started QML was recommended over QtWidget, yet the library of components at that time was very limited.

For desktop I would have preferred using Qt actually as I’ve developed before a relatively large cross platform app with QtWidget and it’s a very good framework with excellent doc.

bedwardly-down · 2020-04-09T22:28:08.564Z

Honestly, would separating mobile and desktop be feasible? I mean QT is constantly getting better and more extensions are being released to make developing various types of apps easier.

laurent · 2020-04-09T22:41:39.854Z

Everything’s possible but I don’t think it would make sense. If let’s say we get stuck and Electron or React Native get discontinued then we could look at porting the code to another framework, but it’s not the case. No framework is perfect anyway, I’m sure if we use something else we’ll hit other different issues.

Also, people like to dislike Electron and React Native but it’s actually impressive how well they work on a wide range of devices, operating systems and configurations. It’s difficult to find frameworks that work as well as that.

bedwardly-down · 2020-04-09T23:10:06.891Z

I can see that. A common issue in the Linux community and outside of it: if an app or framework doesn’t work, move to Windows because it has the most support. Almost all frameworks have Linux related issues at some point.

It’s an infuriating notion that doesn’t actually solve any problems.

RedDocMD · 2020-04-10T03:13:31.898Z

I agree that almost every framework has some issue or the other. wxWidgets is cross platform but has a weird signal handling mechanism and user customisation is difficult. Qt is great but the mobile support is questionable. Electron and React Native combined makes it almost cross platform and cross device and is easier to code, but they are slower and have a tendency to break now and then. As a language JavaScript evolves too fast, Java seems bloated and stagnant (at least some people think, I don’t), C++ is concise but memory management has to be done very systematically for avoiding performance lags or bugs, Python GUIs tend to be laggy. Rust and Go seem to be the new big thing in the language world, but I don’t know how much actual developmment has been done with them.

There seems to be no Paradise in the software development world it seems…

avndp · 2020-04-10T03:31:21.160Z

I’m not sure if this is relevant here: https://ev.kde.org/2020/04/06/changes-in-qt-and-the-kde-free-qt-foundation/

Considering the fact that Joplin is FOSS, is Qt a good choice?

vabean · 2020-04-11T11:53:37.567Z

avndp:

Considering the fact that Joplin is FOSS, is Qt a good choice?

Why should that be a problem?

Qt is great but the mobile support is questionable.

Why? I've written several apps for Android.

C++ is concise but memory management has to be done very systematically for avoiding performance lags or bugs

Smart Pointers handles this pretty easily.

In general I think Qt is great. It's cross platform and with QML the UI is easily customizable...

bedwardly-down · 2020-04-11T15:39:52.388Z

@vabean, QT just got in a bit of a conflict with much of its user base over the license changes being made and some mishap with the KDE developers and community. The Open Source community (including me) can become ravenous beasts at the drop of a hat when companies do things like this that could affect how developers use libraries in their apps. The license change here isn’t that bad of a move but can affect how proprietary software uses QT from here on out. That’s what the problem here is

RedDocMD · 2020-04-11T16:40:57.235Z

vabean:

Smart Pointers handles this pretty easily.

@vabean, I was referring to this only, However the thing with smart pointers is that if used in the incorrect way it can have serious performance tolls. Used the right way however, it is great and gets rid of performance and memory problems (Yes, smart pointers and pointers used the right way with proper move semantics have a performance boost).
I think you will have to admit that of all the languages I mentioned, C++ needs the maximum sophistication to get that maximum performance.

vabean · 2020-04-12T16:39:55.001Z

bedwardly-down Yes, making LTS only available for commercial customers and now requiring an account for all users is bad. In general I would summarize Qt: Great technology and BS (company) management. Nevertheless, the technology is great

I think you will have to admit that of all the languages I mentioned, C++ needs the maximum sophistication to get that maximum performance.

Maybe if you aim for Scott Meyers-like optimizations. But in most cases I would argue that getting out the maximum performance of C++ isn't necessary since basic solutions are performant enough when compared to other technologies...

chgraham · 2020-04-12T23:01:13.805Z

Are you aware of / have you considered Gluon ? All-Java, with native (mobile) implementations (including look & feel) of JavaFX, if I understand correctly.

iOS, Android, cross-platform desktop (apparently).

Gluon

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Gluon

Gluon Desktop - Gluon

Small, Powerful API.Convention over Configuration.Kickstart your desktop apps. Buy Now (Try for free) Small, Powerful API Frameworks tend to grow, and grow, and grow! Gluon Desktop has been designed with a minimal API footprint in mind...

I don’t think the company’s website provides sufficient information, i.e., you’d really have to chat with its sales reps and developers to evaluate either or both products. I get the impression that Gluon Desktop may have been orphaned. Again, a question or two would be required.

Gluon CloudLink - Gluon

Mobile Management & Cloud Integration

Gluon

Scene Builder - Gluon

Drag & Drop,Rapid Application Development. Download Now Integrated Scene Builder works with the JavaFX ecosystem – official controls, community projects, and Gluon offerings including Gluon Mobile, Gluon Desktop, and Gluon CloudLink....

werth · 2020-04-13T08:00:57.693Z

Or maybe Kotlin/Kotlin Native?

metalspork · 2020-04-14T05:48:43.431Z

My initial feeling is that I’m wary of trying to use a single unified codebase to build a graphical application that works on everything. There are very few tools that do that properly. That said, I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I’m on board to help with any development efforts.

guy-rouillier · 2020-05-08T01:53:18.620Z

I did extensive work with Java (and a small amount of JavaFX) as a professional developer in a corporate environment. Java was tolerated there since it’s a captive audience. But in general, Java GUI apps are not well loved. Most people prefer native UIs, and JavaFX doesn’t come close to that.

I don’t know Gluon at all, but looks like development options can get costly. Especially in the open source world, developers typically avoid costly platforms.

rlogwood · 2020-07-16T13:40:01.247Z

Have you considered Flutter? It's free and open source and backed by Google and uses Dart. Yes it's a new kid on the block at about 3 years old, but looks good and is targeted to run everywhere. Could be fun to explore as an option

https://flutter.dev/
FAQ - Flutter

RedDocMD · 2020-07-16T16:44:00.911Z

Yes Flutter is a rather excellent choice. But it works only for mobile devices, making it unsuitable for Joplin, which must share the same codebase for all its versions.